Make the Brainwasher trait free.

[AutumnalModding]

About the PR

Does what it says on the tin.

Why / Balance

There's no real reason for it to cost points.

Technical details

How to test

Media

Breaking changes

Changelog

🆑 Illumos

• tweak: Brainwasher trait is now free.

[NotLivyathan]

Caveat that the only way I and seemingly others agree to this is that neuralyzers and brainwashing become exclusive to ERP and/or adjacent settings and no longer be useable for antags. i.e. an antag cannot brainwash someone to help them with their antag objectives.

[AutumnalModding]

Not opposed to that whatsoever.

[MsEpic59]

Caveat that the only way I and seemingly others agree to this is that neuralyzers and brainwashing become exclusive to ERP and/or adjacent settings and no longer be useable for antags. i.e. an antag cannot brainwash someone to help them with their antag objectives.

Only problem I see is that plenty of lore around xenoborgs being able to be sneakier with mind control is already being developed and stripping that would kill some of the very flavorful rp that has been starting up with it.

[AutumnalModding]

Xenoborgs are already special cased. Their variant of the "trait" goes through mshields.

[ChefUmaril]

Xenoborgs are already special cased. Their variant of the "trait" goes through mshields.

This has been noted and marked down as a bug, as I am aware, and wasn't intended for their neuralyzer module to ignore mindshields.

[fenndragon]

what's the reason to drop the cost here?

[AutumnalModding]

it's mostly an ERP trait, and making it free brings it in line with the other ERP traits

[Notarin]

Hi all, I am the one who originally created the brainwashing system. Kinda would've liked to have been poked early on, but better late than never.

First off, I'll reply to some stuff in this thread.

Caveat that the only way I and seemingly others agree to this is that neuralyzers and brainwashing become exclusive to ERP and/or adjacent settings and no longer be useable for antags. i.e. an antag cannot brainwash someone to help them with their antag objectives.

@NotLivyathan I am personally against making them ERP only, not strictly because I want them to be available to antagging, but because I have intended since very early on to either pave way for it, or to personally expand the brainwashing system to be used for more, and locking brainwashing down to ERP only is a solid way to lay precedent barring such expansion.

Second off, I am already personally against the trait even being as low as one point. I feel like several points made by @NotLivyathan here were simply never addressed and that PR was merged prematurely.

A reason for its short price was a citation of the ease of access to the existing neuralyzers, there are some issues with this.

• This was never a strong decision, it was an afterthought and quick decision to make neuralyzers obtainable in game before merging the PR adding them.
• One reason they were so easy to access is because I wanted them to be generally obtainable for the public, as most people knew not of their existence or nature, but even then they were still difficult to obtain, as the vendor must be hacked, and even then there were only 2 in the machine for the round.
• Another factor is I simply made an error in my judgement; I was only thinking in the frame of days, and I was proper to assume that 2 per shift would make them effectively scarce, but I failed to entertain months and how obtainable they would be over such a course of time.
• Another factor is I was shortsighted and slightly greedy at the time and wanted it to also be obtainable for myself.
• Finally, I never planned to keep them this obtainable. While I haven't championed them as well as I should have due to my haitus, I still have very frequently entertained reworking their obtain-ability and contraband status.

Also I feel the trait being so ridiculously cheap just renders the neuralyzer kinda worthless. Canonically the P7T113L Cognitive Governor is cutting edge tech, and the neuralyzer is bleeding edge tech, just barely made available for public consumption, meant to be something you're supposed to pull a couple strings to get ahold of, which makes me question how to brainwashing trait even works. I plan on touching base with @ShadesMars to work out the lore.

For now, I would like to make it clear I am against any form of price reduction, but am fine with the current price until some discussion on the nature and implications is had.

EDIT: Before someone erroneously extrapolates from what I said that I plan to make the neuralyzer unobtainable or not available to those who wish to ERP with them, that is not true. I personally plan to do my best to make sure that private and bedroom use is always available, as that is the primary purpose and intent of the PR from the start to this day.

[NotLivyathan]

I don't personally want to restrict it to ERP only either, but a single point for it was already stretching it by a mile and then further reducing it to free would be unacceptable to allow it to be utilized by antags for their objectives. It literally gives anyone that rolls traitor the ability to have not one, not two, not even three, but as many FREE Syndicate reinforcements as they want. It'd effectively be a free trait that turns any and every traitor into a Head Rev, with no way of detecting it.

[AutumnalModding]

Making it 6 (equivalent to Dermal Armour, Bionic Legs, Psionically Gifted) is a huge stretch. Making it 12 is absurd; you cannot reasonably justify that it is worth more than platelets or innoculation.

Both of these were real suggestions brought up.

[Notarin]

Making it 6 (equivalent to Dermal Armour, Bionic Legs, Psionically Gifted) is a huge stretch. Making it 12 is absurd; you cannot reasonably justify that it is worth more than platelets or innoculation.

I don't feel it constructive to discuss exact prices here. This thread is about the PR making it free. I feel that if we discuss potential price increases here, then what will occur is an eventual PR or issue where you must defer to this PR to see existing discussion about it. If we wanna talk about it, I think we should open a PR, issue, or Discord thread and talk about that there.

[IngvarJackal]

Here are some thoughts from my side.

I have intended since very early on to either pave way for it, or to personally expand the brainwashing system to be used for more, and locking brainwashing down to ERP only is a solid way to lay precedent barring such expansion

The brainwashing methods via ability or neuraliser must remain for non-antag (E)RP because they are covered by consent toggle and widely available. There is a successful example of Floof/Euphoria having them as such.

For antagging, there are items in the game which allow for conversions, namely -- revolutionary flash.
I hear of xenoborgs having that ability too, but didn't verify myself.
More can be added -- and not guarded by consent toggles, because so far the direction of antag play was to never guard behind consent (can't opt out from xenoborgs or revs).
The added items must have strict non-ERP description thus fully separating mechanical antag play and leisurely (E)RP.