issues concerning particular shapes

[Armand1]

Here is running tally of weird shapes and what to do with them (for details see below):

very asymmetrical vases
These probably have to be excluded

1. Apulian rhyton
2. Apulian flask -- pancake
3. Canosan keros -- 4 mini vases stuck together
4. Canosan askos -- a spout off to one side, or two spouts on either side, but either way not radially symmetrical
5. Cretan flasks -- many are barrel shape. I think these are Mycenean, so we need not worry about them
6. Corinthian and Boeotian ring vases -- donut
7. Boeotian askos -- a spout off to one side, with a handle like an iron
8. epinetron -- a shin guard, rare
9. Bucchero chalice --- often has 3 legs

slighly asymmetrical vases
These can be fixed by removing or ignoring the asymmetry

9. epichysis -- central, but bent, spout. Chop at bend.
10. jugs with spouts --- chop at bend

[Armand1]

The epichysis has an asymmetrical spout rising from a central stalk. We will truncate it just below the bulb, so:

[Armand1]

We'll exclude "epinetron" --- something like a shin guard as being totally asymmetrical

[Armand1]

and this wonky East greek flask (I've only found one so far)

[Armand1]

For jugs with spouts we'll truncate here, just below the asymmetry

[Armand1]

There are these "ring" vases. They're flat. I think they should be excluded as not being radially symmetrical (I have previously kept side-on views).

[LittleAri]

Dear Armand, this is very helpful. Will need to edit the current "algorithm 1" (which is aimed at pots with no/one handle), to do the truncating. Not sure how obvious it is where the truncating line should be for the epichysis but I'll have a play around. For the jug with the spout, the line can be described to be at the same height as the highest point on the (inner) handle contour. What do you think?

As for the vase ring, I see now! When I first saw the Corinthian vase ring, they had been rotated and they resembled cousins of alabastrons. (see below).

So will the Boeotian ring vases also be excluded? When on the side they remind me of my beloved iron-resembling-pot, the askos. (both seen below).

As an unrelated side note: that last ring vase you sent looks rather awesome!

[Armand1]

I know -- the ring vases are awesome. So, there are two problems with them: the first is that with respect to the opening they are bilaterally symmetrical: you can view them side-on or flat. Which should we use? Well,I think there's no answer to that: they just have a different dimensionality to most other things. But the more practical problem is that you sometimes are given one view, sometimes the other, rarely both. Anyway --- I think this means that we need to discard them unless you can think of a solution. This applies to Boeotian ring vases too --- since they do look like alabastron cousins when they're really not. (I put them in with this problem in the back of my head.)

I don't think that this is a problem with the askos. With respect to its opening (the main hole) the body is symmetrical. So we remove the handle obviously. What about that side-spout? Ummm --- not sure. I think it's all got to go. So perhaps we are explicitly defining our study about shapes that are "radially symmetrical". All other stuff gets lopped off. This means our lovely askoi basically become bowls --- an ignomious fate. On the other hand, it does reflect their construction: you make a partly covered bowl, put a fancy spout on it and a handle and you've got an askos.

Perhaps there are better solutions...

[Armand1]

For the jug with the spout, the line can be described to be at the same height as the highest point on the (inner) handle contour. What do you think?

yes I think that will work

[Armand1]

I am sorting some Cretan vessels. I think that they are mostly Geometric --- or perhaps even Bronze age.

There is a class of flask that is barrel-shaped. For the moment, I am taking the short-axis view (the view that makes them look most like a sphere.) But there are genuine spheres here too --- and there are more pancake flasks as well. So, we are underestimating the diversity of flasks here. They will all appear spherical, even when some are flat and some are elongate barrels. One is a bit puzzled...

[LittleAri]

Oh wow I've never seen them like that! (I'm used to the last picture). Also, from the ones I've seen, I assumed most of the variability came from the neck (we've seen some with pretty elongated necks).

Hmm I'm rather puzzled too. Surely that middle picture would look less spherical than the third pot if taken from the same angle, no? I'm tempted to say we should stick to the spherical-view ones (e.g. the last photo) for now. ... but if we ever decide to do contour shape analysis in 3D, we'll choose flasks as our first exciting sample. 😋

[Armand1]

Canosan double askos (Hellenistic). I think we chop off the handle, but leave the double spouts.

[Armand1]

Quite a few Canosan (South Italian) vases have weird decorations glued to them. I think we chop them off

[Armand1]

And then we have these weird pot-glued-to-pots (Canosan kernos). Unclear what to do with them. I suspect simply exclude as not being radially symmetrical.

[Armand1]

Apulian flasks are pancake shaped (there is one); take narrow side on

[Armand1]

These rhytons (Apulian) are excluded as radically radially asymmetrical