Add traits: Regeneration compromised, superior, and enhanced.

[Eagle0600]

About the PR

Adds three traits, which enhance or reduce passive healing.

Why / Balance

To further the push for custom species (rather than every pet species needing to be added individually), I'm adding these traits. As regards balance, the enhanced regeneration trait only matches slime people's regeneration, and is unlikely to significantly affect the outcome of any conflicts.

Since the comparison has already come up, and were always inevitable, here's a direct comparison to platelets of old.

	Baseline	Enhanced Regeneration	Superior Regeneration	Platelets of old
Cost	0	4	8	10
Maximum damage	20	40	50	400
Works when crit	No	No	No	Yes
Refills blood	—	—	—	0.025
Brute (group)	0.07	0.14	0.21	0.30
Heat	0.07	0.14	0.14	0.075
Cold, Shock, Caustic	—	—	—	0.075
Airloss (group, including bloodloss damage and while crit)	—	—	—	0.25
Poison	—	—	0.07	0.15
Radiation	—	—	—	0.15
Genetic (!)	—	—	—	0.20

As you can see, Platelets was problematic in key ways that are completely absent from these traits, including allowing someone to completely heal and get up after going crit, due to a combination of blood regeneration, airloss healing, a damage cap of 400, and working while crit.

Technical details

Media

Click to show

Requirements

• I have tested all added content and changes.
• I have added media to this PR or it does not require an ingame showcase.

Licensing:

• I confirm that I am the creator of the content in this PR, and allow licensing it under the following license(s), or that the original author has given me permission to do so:
  • AGPL (https://github.com/Floof-Station/Panta-Rhei/blob/master/LICENSE-AGPLv3.txt)
  • MIT (https://github.com/Floof-Station/Panta-Rhei/blob/master/LICENSE-MIT.txt)

Breaking changes

None

Changelog
🆑

• add: Three new traits that increase or decrease your natural regeneration.

[Eagle0600]

Please see discussion on #669

[Mnemotechnician]

Do not use OverrideCompsEffect, you will override the species' baseline regeneration. Make a new trait effect that modifies the PassiveDamage component incrementally.

Also, this is going to cause the same issue as the old platelets/round-start regeneration - maybe you could avoid it by preventing security/salv players from taking it?

[Eagle0600]

Do not use OverrideCompsEffect, you will override the species' baseline regeneration. Make a new trait effect that modifies the PassiveDamage component incrementally.

Also, this is going to cause the same issue as the old platelets/round-start regeneration - maybe you could avoid it by preventing security/salv players from taking it?

The intention was to replace the player's base-line regeneration, meaning that it will not stack with slime's (or other) inherent regeneration and always be a known maximum.

I do not believe it will be an issue the same way platelets was. I have shown a comparison to platelets in the PR description, and the regeneration is far closer to baseline than it is to platelets, not merely in numbers (which are not useful for in-combat healing), but much, much more importantly, in the fact that platelets could heal from bloodloss and asphyxiation, and while in critical condition up to any amount of damage, making chance death essentially impossible. These traits do none of the above, making them not merely quantitatively but qualitatively entirely different to platelets

[Cprn-Sprkl]

It has been requested that we keep the comments on PRs to their technical aspects. Here is a thread for discussing the merits of the content: https://discord.com/channels/1255902263667331193/1514021471230623805

[Dunrab]

Salvage and Security will take any advantage they can trait wise you have to factor this into any trait you make. I would be much less concerned if you did what Mnemo requested.

[Eagle0600]

Salvage and Security will take any advantage they can trait wise you have to factor this into any trait you make. I would be much less concerned if you did what Mnemo requested.

I do not understand how making it additive instead of replacing base regeneration would make it less able to be min-maxed instead of more.

edit: Ah, you mean blocking security and salvage. Very well.

[Mnemotechnician]

If you're 100% sure you want to replace base regeneration, then sure, but the point about jobs still stands

[Eagle0600]

If you're 100% sure you want to replace base regeneration, then sure, but the point about jobs still stands

I'll get it done as soon as my git client starts cooperating again.

[Eagle0600]

@Mnemotechnician @Dunrab Requested change made.

[Mnemotechnician]

sick

[kivdon]

How would we feel about allowing at least Salvage and maybe Sec to take the smaller healing trait? The one that's equal to what a Slimeperson already gets. I can understand that restriction on the advanced healing, but it feels weird to say that someone can't use points to give their Salvager the same healing that an entire species gets by default.

[Eagle0600]

How would we feel about allowing at least Salvage and maybe Sec to take the smaller healing trait? The one that's equal to what a Slimeperson already gets. I can understand that restriction on the advanced healing, but it feels weird to say that someone can't use points to give their Salvager the same healing that an entire species gets by default.

The enhanced regeneration trait is already equal to what slime-persons get. I have explained this to the maintainer team and they are firm on their stance.

[SyaoranFox]

While yes, this does provide what slimes already have, this would water down what it means to play a slime. Slime characters get this regeneration, at the cost of melting from water. While yes, the regeneration is just one aspect, its quite a powerful aspect to choosing to be a slime.

I brought up the PR in our last development meeting, and the consensus was that being able to just take an aspect of being a particular species and attaching it to another isn't a great direction to be heading. The following recommendations were put forward:

Reduce maximum damage healed on enhanced to 50
Reduce maximum damage healed on superior to 60
Add increased thirst gain to enhanced and advanced to around 0.2f
Add increased hunger gain to advanced to around 0.035f

This would mean that by taking this trait, your body heals you, but also require more nutrients and fluids to maintain the healing. The trade off for passive healing is that you may, at times, become slower due to hunger and thirst.

[Eagle0600]

While yes, this does provide what slimes already have, this would water down what it means to play a slime. Slime characters get this regeneration, at the cost of melting from water. While yes, the regeneration is just one aspect, its quite a powerful aspect to choosing to be a slime.

I brought up the PR in our last development meeting, and the consensus was that being able to just take an aspect of being a particular species and attaching it to another isn't a great direction to be heading. The following recommendations were put forward:

Reduce maximum damage healed on enhanced to 50 Reduce maximum damage healed on superior to 60 Add increased thirst gain to enhanced and advanced to around 0.2f Add increased hunger gain to advanced to around 0.035f

This would mean that by taking this trait, your body heals you, but also require more nutrients and fluids to maintain the healing. The trade off for passive healing is that you may, at times, become slower due to hunger and thirst.

I will note that this increased hunger and thirst would apply even when not healing and therefore not receiving any benefit from the trait. Is that the intent?

edit:
And I just checked, this would increase hunger and thirst decay rates to triple their base?

[SyaoranFox]

While yes, this does provide what slimes already have, this would water down what it means to play a slime. Slime characters get this regeneration, at the cost of melting from water. While yes, the regeneration is just one aspect, its quite a powerful aspect to choosing to be a slime.
I brought up the PR in our last development meeting, and the consensus was that being able to just take an aspect of being a particular species and attaching it to another isn't a great direction to be heading. The following recommendations were put forward:
Reduce maximum damage healed on enhanced to 50 Reduce maximum damage healed on superior to 60 Add increased thirst gain to enhanced and advanced to around 0.2f Add increased hunger gain to advanced to around 0.035f
This would mean that by taking this trait, your body heals you, but also require more nutrients and fluids to maintain the healing. The trade off for passive healing is that you may, at times, become slower due to hunger and thirst.

I will note that this increased hunger and thirst would apply even when not healing and therefore not receiving any benefit from the trait. Is that the intent?

edit: And I just checked, this would increase hunger and thirst decay rates to triple their base?

It has to be more than rodentia, since its going to be a trait that anyone can take, including rodentia. If your body is augmented such that it can heal rapidly, you can't just turn that system off if its biological. Your metabolism is continuously going. The values I gave are actually less than the original base for Delta V. We lowered them to pre-rebase levels a while ago.

So, yes, it would be on all the time.

[kivdon]

While yes, this does provide what slimes already have, this would water down what it means to play a slime. Slime characters get this regeneration, at the cost of melting from water. While yes, the regeneration is just one aspect, its quite a powerful aspect to choosing to be a slime.
I brought up the PR in our last development meeting, and the consensus was that being able to just take an aspect of being a particular species and attaching it to another isn't a great direction to be heading. The following recommendations were put forward:
Reduce maximum damage healed on enhanced to 50 Reduce maximum damage healed on superior to 60 Add increased thirst gain to enhanced and advanced to around 0.2f Add increased hunger gain to advanced to around 0.035f
This would mean that by taking this trait, your body heals you, but also require more nutrients and fluids to maintain the healing. The trade off for passive healing is that you may, at times, become slower due to hunger and thirst.

I will note that this increased hunger and thirst would apply even when not healing and therefore not receiving any benefit from the trait. Is that the intent?
edit: And I just checked, this would increase hunger and thirst decay rates to triple their base?

It has to be more than rodentia, since its going to be a trait that anyone can take, including rodentia. If your body is augmented such that it can heal rapidly, you can't just turn that system off if its biological. Your metabolism is continuously going. The values I gave are actually less than the original base for Delta V. We lowered them to pre-rebase levels a while ago.

So, yes, it would be on all the time.

I recall that there was mention in the meeting of having the big downside here to be instead of a department restriction. Was that ultimately decided on?

[Eagle0600]

It has to be more than rodentia, since its going to be a trait that anyone can take, including rodentia.

I would code it as an increase for downsides, rather than a replacement. I used replacement for upsides to reduce min-maxing and I'd use adding for downsides for the same reason. I will also note that Rodentia have only a 30% increase in hunger (not 33% as claimed in yml comments), not triple base hunger, which is what increasing by 0.35 would be, and they have no increase in thirst at all.

An increase of base hunger of that magnitude would make playing a round absolutely torturous, and I will not commit it since it would simply make the game unfun. I would propose an increase of around 50% (gain, additive with Rodentia hunger if I can pull that off, which I have every reason to expect I can).

[Eagle0600]

To be clear, I believe a hunger increase is a good idea. I disagree only on the specifics of the requested implementation details and numbers.

[SyaoranFox]

It has to be more than rodentia, since its going to be a trait that anyone can take, including rodentia.

I would code it as an increase for downsides, rather than a replacement. I used replacement for upsides to reduce min-maxing and I'd use adding for downsides for the same reason. I will also note that Rodentia have only a 30% increase in hunger (not 33% as claimed in yml comments), not triple base hunger, which is what increasing by 0.35 would be, and they have no increase in thirst at all.

An increase of base hunger of that magnitude would make playing a round absolutely torturous, and I will not commit it since it would simply make the game unfun. I would propose an increase of around 50% (gain, additive with Rodentia hunger if I can pull that off, which I have every reason to expect I can).

Change it to 0.035, not by. The change for rodentia isn't that much, for a human, its quite a bit. As I said, this rate is similar to the one Delta V had for species by default.

[Eagle0600]

Change it to 0.035, not by. The change for rodentia isn't that much, for a human, its quite a bit. As I said, this rate is similar to the one Delta V had for species by default.

I'll do this, under protest that it would be better to make it additive instead of a replacement rather than needing to choose a number higher than all existing and future species; and to make it as much of a penalty for all species rather than letting people min-max by choosing species with a lesser impact.

I will also note we are not Delta V and are not trying to be Delta V, so what number Delta V had it at is irrelevant.

However, I do believe Kivdon's question needs answering before I proceed.

[SyaoranFox]

Change it to 0.035, not by. The change for rodentia isn't that much, for a human, its quite a bit. As I said, this rate is similar to the one Delta V had for species by default.

I'll do this, under protest that it would be better to make it additive instead of a replacement rather than needing to choose a number higher than all existing and future species; and to make it as much of a penalty for all species rather than letting people min-max by choosing species with a lesser impact.

I will also note we are not Delta V and are not trying to be Delta V, so what number Delta V had it at is irrelevant.

However, I do believe Kivdon's question needs answering before I proceed.

Then make it additive, or multiplicative. As long as its more than the standard rate. Its up to @Mnemotechnician and @Dunrab if they wish to lift their stipulation in light of the hunger/thirst increases.

The reason I set the rate so much higher is to offset it being attached to various different species. If its additive, then it ignores the already present value for the sake of scaling. If its multiplicative, it affects species that already have high hunger more than those with low hunger. If its flat, you are right, it may have unforeseen consequences on future changes.

Now, while I appreciate the back and forth, I feel like the speech is becoming aggressive. I know we are not Delta V. Our base is from there though, and at some point someone thought it was a good balance decision. We ran with that for a while before we changed it, and it had the effect of making people slower if they don't eat enough. Coincidently, that is the effect we'd be looking for as a trade off for healing.

[Eagle0600]

Now, while I appreciate the back and forth, I feel like the speech is becoming aggressive. I know we are not Delta V. Our base is from there though, and at some point someone thought it was a good balance decision. We ran with that for a while before we changed it, and it had the effect of making people slower if they don't eat enough. Coincidently, that is the effect we'd be looking for as a trade off for healing.

While I have been frustrated, I had no intention to be aggressive, nor do I believe I have been. I apologise for giving you that impression.

I will request a re-review from Mnemo and Dunrab.

[Eagle0600]

@Dunrab @Mnemotechnician
It was apparently mentioned in the developer meeting that the hunger effects may be an alternative to role restrictions. Do you believe it is safe to remove the role restrictions in light of this?

[Mnemotechnician]

i suppose

[Eagle0600]

I believe the test fail is unrelated (failed to add mime winter coat to filled foolbox).

edit: I observe the same test failure on #709, so I very firmly believe it's unrelated.